Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/17/1998 01:40 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
April 17, 1998
1:40 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Sean Parnell
Senator Johnny Ellis
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 331
"An Act regulating licensed professional counselors; regulating use
of the titles 'licensed professional counselor' and 'licensed
counselor'; amending Rule 504(a)(3), Alaska Rules of Evidence; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED SB 331 OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 305
"An Act relating to rehabilitation of injured workers."
- MOVED SB 305 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 331 - See HESS minutes dated 3/09/98 and 3/20/98.
SB 305 - See Labor and Commerce minutes dated 3/10/98 and
Judiciary minutes dated 4/15/98.
WITNESS REGISTER
Ms. Sandy Burd
Staff to Senator Jim Duncan
State Capitol
Juneau, Ak 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 305
Mr. Paul Grossi
Director, Division of Workers' Compensation
Department of Labor
PO Box 25512
Juneau, Ak 99802-5512
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 305
Ms. Beth Hagevig
Staff to Senator Gary Wilken
State Capitol
Juneau, Ak 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 331
Ms. Anne Henry
3347 Park Place
Juneau, Ak 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 331
Mr. Gary Clement
PO Box 21811
Juneau, Ak 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 331
Ms. Sheila Clarson
Alaska Psycological Associates
PO BOX 671634
Chugiak, Ak 99567
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 331
Ms. Cathryn Simon
American Counseling Associates
12320 Tracy Rd. Apt A
Anchorage, Ak 99516
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 331
Mr. Allen Morroti
PO BOX 756480
Fairbanks, Ak 99775
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 331
Ms. Mary Matthews
4108 Billy's Lane
Fairbanks, Ak 99709
POSITION STATEMENT: Candidate for Confirmation
Mr. Lloyd Cary
PO BOX 957
Soldotna, Ak 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 331
Dr. Carol Alley
Ketchikan, Ak 99901
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-36, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to
order at 1:40 and called SB 305 as the first order of business.
SB 305 - IMPLEMENTATION OF WORK COMP EDITION
MS. SANDY BURD, staff to Senator Jim Duncan, presented SB 305 as a
bill that will allow for the update of the worker's compensation
edition. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the bill also includes some clean up
language. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said MR. PAUL GROSSI was also present to
speak on the bill. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR briefly asked MR. GROSSI if he
liked the bill, MR. GROSSI replied he did, and CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said
he would entertain a motion.
SENATOR PARNELL moved SB 305 out of committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, it was so ordered.
SB 331 - PROFESSIONAL COUNSELOR LICENSING
MS. BETH HAGEVIG, staff to SENATOR GARY WILKEN, presented SB 331,
a bill to license professional counselors. MS. HAGEVIG reported the
bill broadens the career options of counselors, increases
counselors' ability to keep client information confidential and
allows counselors to be covered under many employee assistance
programs (EAPs). MS. HAGEVIG said the bill is good for Alaska
mental health consumers since it establishes minimum educational
and experiential requirements and will partially eliminate the
"buyer beware" situation that now exists. She said the bill also
institutes grievance procedures and provides legal recourse for
clients who feel they have been wronged. MS. HAGEVIG said the bill
has the support of numerous professional organizations.
MS. ANNE HENRY, a professional counselor, said Alaska is one of
only six states that do not currently license professional
counselors. In one of those states, legislation is pending to do
so, and similar legislation is being debated at the federal level.
MS. HENRY said the bill is a title restriction and not a license
restriction bill; if people do not want to get the license they are
not forced to, they are simply disallowed from calling themselves
licensed professional counselors.
MS. HENRY said the bill has similar educational requirements as
those that exist in other states and allows professional counselors
to become an integral part of available mental health services. She
urged the committee's support for the bill.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted that SENATOR WILKEN, Pamela Watts and Robert
Lane have corresponded regarding this issue and are concerned there
are insufficient course work requirements to help prepare
professional counselors to treat serious mental disorders of to
administer complex psychological testing measures.
MR. GARY CLEMENT, a mental health clinician for the Juneau Mental
Health clinic, said he works in an emergency room and administers
psychotherapy every day. MR. CLEMENT said he does not do testing
other than that for which he has been trained in the field of
substance abuse. MR. CLEMENT said he does not believe testing is
the issue here, and all mental health providers are trained to deal
with serious mental illnesses.
MS. HENRY added that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, (DSM
IV) is used by virtually every mental health care provider and sets
the standards for any type of mental health disorder. The manual
standardizes the terminology and criteria used in diagnosis. MS.
HENRY said this bill requires either a MA or a Ph.D. from an
accredited program as well as practical experience and 2,000 hours
of supervised work.
MS. HAGEVIG noted that there is a limitation of practice in the
bill, allowing a person to provide only those services which he or
she has been appropriately trained to perform.
Number 231
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned there had also been concern expressed
about the lack of specific educational course work requirements.
MS. HAGEVIG said the bill is fairly consistent with other statutes
in place for social workers and associate psychologists. She said
the degree requirement is in the bill, but the course work for that
degree is not specified.
MS. HENRY indicated that the organizations that accredit these
programs are national organizations that are very particular in the
programs they accredit.
SENATOR PARNELL asked about the confidentiality provision and what
it is meant to protect.
Number 261
MS. HENRY replied that rule 504 is fairly standard and mandates the
confidentiality of information provided to a counselor unless there
is a threat of harm to the client themselves or to others.
MS. HAGEVIG said much of the language in this bill was borrowed
from the legislation enabling the licensure of marriage and family
therapists. SENATOR PARNELL noted that those counselors who are not
licenced must divulge information if they are subpoenaed. MS. HENRY
replied this was correct and specified that the privilege belongs
to the client and can be waived if they so desire.
Number 306
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the file indicates there is concern from the
Alaska Psychological Association (APA) about the use of assessment
techniques. AMA would like to see the use of assessment techniques
limited to those "consistent with each counselor's formal education
and training, licensed professional counselors may administer and
utilize appropriate assessment instruments which measure and/or
diagnose problems and/or dysfunctions within the course of human
growth and development . . . appraisal techniques shall not include
the use of projective techniques . . . nor the use of psychological
or clinical tests designed to identify or classify abnormal or
pathological human behavior, nor the use of individually
administered intelligence tests." MS. HENRY said counselors do not
do these types of tests and she believes the prohibition on
projective testing already exists in the bill. MS. HENRY again
referred to the limitation of practice provision.
MR. CLEMENT explained that deciphering the subtleties of tests like
the Rorschach (ink blot) test was more of an art than a science,
and if he wanted to use a Rorschach he had evaluated, he would get
his psychologist to "sign off on it." CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted the
issue seemed to be a turf battle of some sort.
MS. HENRY said it was not the intent of the bill to allow anyone to
do anything they are not trained to do and the bill allows a person
to complain if they believe this is happening.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said it seems that existing counselors don't have
to comply with the provisions in the bill. MS. HAGEVIG said the
bill does contain a grandfathering provision for people currently
practicing who have either a MA or a Ph.D. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if
the degree has to be in counseling and MS. HENRY said counseling or
a related field.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced his intent to take up the confirmation
hearing at this time.
VIOLENT CRIME BOARD
DR. CAROL ALLEY, candidate for confirmation to the violent crime
board, testified that she had been on the board for several years
and during that time was busy with the important work of the board.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MS. ALLEY if she had any comments for the
committee. MS. ALLEY replied that the board has undergone many
changes recently and has effectively adapted to them and done a
good job overall.
SENATOR PARNELL thanked MS. ALLEY for her service and asked if she
could detail the purpose of the board. MS. ALLEY replied that the
board helps to compensate victims injured in violent crimes and
pays for necessary expenses including medical and relocation
expenses and counseling and funeral costs.
Number 450
SENATOR PARNELL confirmed that the board was funded primarily
through felons' Permanent Fund Dividend checks, and asked what
criteria were used to divide such a limited source of money. DR.
ALLEY replied they make that determination case by case and
attempt to compensate victims who are "truly innocent" first.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thanked DR. ALLEY again for her service and moved
on to the Alaska Judicial Council.
ALASKA JUDICIAL COUNCIL
MS. MARY MATTHEWS said she was pleased to be considered for
confirmation as a public member of the judicial council.
Number 494
SENATOR PARNELL asked the type of thing the board does to screen
people. MS. MATTHEWS explained there is an extensive interview
process, including the review of letters of reference as well as a
bar poll and a series of interviews. She expressed confidence in
the process.
SENATOR PARNELL asked what criteria she used to recommend
candidates and MS. MATTHEWS replied she has no law background but
has a good background and has been involved in education, community
psychology and management and she follows the procedures outlined
for judge selection.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the bar poll process has been peer
reviewed or changed in the last several years. MS. MATTHEWS was not
sure but said she would find out at the board's next meeting. She
said they are always talking about ways to improve the process and
she is aware of concerns regarding the bar poll. She restated the
fact that the judicial council is in a constant process of
evaluation and revision of the selection process and they are open
to change and improvement.
Number 555
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR indicated he has been through the process and had
a bad experience with it. He believes the bar poll should be thrown
out unless the recommendations that are submitted are no longer
anonymous.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said MS. MATTHEW's background indicates she might
have some strong feelings on certain subjects. He asked if she
would recommend one candidate over another due to her association
with certain organizations or feelings on certain topics. MS.
MATTHEWS replied she would not pretend to be totally unbiased, but
would hope she could simply look for the best possible candidate
for each judgeship. She indicated she would look for a person with
a variety of experience, the respect of his or her peers and
concern with fairness in applying the law.
TAPE 98-36, Side B
Number 580
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thanked MS. MATTHEWS for her candid answer, but
commented that private practice attorneys can't seem to get through
the council lately. MS. MATTHEWS thanked CHAIRMAN TAYLOR also for
his perspective and said she had been taking notes. She commented
that the judicial council is concerned that politics stay out of
the board's process.
Number 535
SENATOR PARNELL moved that the committee issue the standard letter
and forward the names of DR. ALLEY and MS. MATTHEWS to the full
body for a confirmation vote. Without objection, it was so ordered.
SB 331 - PROFESSIONAL COUNSELOR LICENSING
Resuming the discussion of SB 331, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR again noted that
there seemed to be a turf battle over the bill between
psychologists and counselors. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thought he heard
someone say that if these counselors had the appropriate post
graduate work and training they could be psychologists themselves.
MR. CLEMENT stated the name of the program is precisely what
prevents this. He said they do in fact have the same training, just
under another name. MS. HENRY agreed, saying the name on your
degree must match the name on your license. MR. CLEMENT specified
that a degree in "community psychology" might not be treated the
same as a degree in "psychology."
Number 444
SENATOR WILKEN thanked the committee for hearing the bill, saying
it originated from a constituent who had been wronged by someone
who claimed to be a counselor. He said he approached this issue
from a consumer protection standpoint but he's happy if it happens
to benefit counselors as well.
MS. SHEILA CLARSON Ph.D., representing the Alaska Psychological
Association (APA), testified via teleconference from Anchorage and
said the language of the bill is too broad, though she does support
counselor licensing. MS. CLARSON said the training of counselors
differs from that of a psychologist or a psychological associate
and the bill does not accurately reflect that.
MS. CLARSON said course work is generally specified for different
types of licences by regulation. She said MR. CLEMENT's comments
about testing illustrated APA's concern about testing. She said
appropriate use of testing and accurate diagnoses are important
issues that keep her from supporting the bill at this time.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there had been an amendment contemplated
to deal with the testing issue. SENATOR WILKEN said he also thinks
it is a turf battle and the sides have compromised all they can. He
thinks the bill has reached a workable point at which the public
interest is served. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MS. CLARSON if she was
aware of the changes that had been made to the bill and she replied
she was. MS. CLARSON maintained her concern about the use of
testing by counselors due to the fact that the results of such a
test can make a big impact on a person's life. She concluded that
she recognizes there is room for both psychologists and counselors,
she just wants the bill to reflect the difference between the two.
Number 400
MS. ANNE HENRY said the scope of counselors practice is defined in
the bill and was modeled after the statute which licences marriage
and family therapists. She said the bill has been changed to
accommodate the concerns of psychologists.
MS. HAGEVIG made the point that psychologists have regulations
defining who can do what and this same thing will happen for
counselors under this bill. She indicated if there is a board of
counselors set up, they will set the regulations to flesh out what
is allowed in statute. She said the original licensure state for
psychologists was no more specific than this bill.
Number 387
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR commented that a board of counselors defining what
counselors can do would understandably want to define those limits
broadly.
MS. CATHERINE SIMON, a member of the American Counseling
Association, testified via teleconference from Anchorage to her
support of the bill.
Number 360
MR. ALLEN MOROTTI commented that the bill will allow a board of
counselors to be set up. Currently, there is no board and no type
of oversight at all over people who call themselves "counselors."
MR. LLOYD CARY supported the bill due to a case he was aware of in
which a pastor falsely claimed to be a psychologist and was
practicing counseling. He supported licensure for the protection of
the public.
SENATOR PARNELL moved SB 331 with individual recommendation.
Without objection, the bill moved from committee and they were
adjourned.
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